00:03:20
Thank you so much for having me. I am so happy to be here. Well, I have never had anybody on to talk quiz funnels before and I was going, it is a super niche area. How did you end up working in something that was so super niche? What did that end up morphing from?

00:03:36
And how long have you been the quiz funnel expert? Yeah, it morphed from being sort of a Jane of all copywriting trades. I thought I had a niche which was health and wellness, and that's a very broad niche. So I was doing everything under the sun to do with copy and content in that area and I really struggled as a freelancer. This was like ten years ago now, and I was offered a job in house and I accepted.

00:04:12
I became the full time copywriter for a spiritual development company that for the most part was selling info products and courses and live retreats and things of that nature. And I did a quiz for them and it by far was the most successful lead magnet they'd ever had. It was the cheapest ads they'd ever run. It was a huge success. And I left that company and went off on my own and looked back and asked myself, what did I do there that is noteworthy that I could actually niche down into.

00:04:57
And the quiz sort of stood out. So I ran with it. I started offering that to other types of businesses and it continued to work. And that was in 2016. 2017, yes.

00:05:15
It's been going a while. Have you seen trends happening with the popularity of quizzes along the way, or is it like a steady growth? Because I felt like there was a stage in the online courses where I saw quizzes everywhere. Yeah, I think that they did hit sort of a peak adoption with especially just online business owners using them. And then what I think happened is a lot of people created really bad quizzes that actually weren't that effective at what they thought they were going to be doing for their business and their email list.

00:05:56
We can talk about this more, but a lot of times people create a quiz and they just do it with some really clever, fun idea that actually doesn't have that much to do with what they sell and what they offer, so then they flop. And then there's this reputation of, like, well, maybe I have a huge email list, but it doesn't matter if the people on it aren't actually aligned. And so I think there was then, like, a slight retreat from that strategy, which is great, because now if you do it and you do it right, it's actually really easy to stand out and create that incredible first impression. Yeah. And so that was going to be one of my questions was, how do you choose between the balance of that fun kind of thing that is just something not so much gimmicky, but more that's very engaging and attractive to being very appropriate for your niche and what you're doing so that you end up with the right people on your list.

00:07:01
Because I saw one of them that actually, I think, is the one that made me go down the rabbit hole and find you was Jenna Kutch's. What type of entrepreneur are you? And you came out as, like, Oprah or Jeff Bezos or different things like that. And I was going, interesting like that. How does that have anything to do with the backend?

00:07:20
But it's obviously being really effective in terms of list building. So what is your take on the difference between the fun and the professional, and how do they meet? Yeah, I mean, that's such a good question. And I would actually ask you, when you took Jenna's quiz, did it give you a sense of knowing her better, having a deeper connection with her? Like, she kind of got.

00:07:47
So I have to try and think about that because I was in ways of going. I was taking the quiz to figure out how quizzes worked. I wanted to see the back end marketing process of the flow. I wasn't wondering what type of entrepreneur I was. I was like, how is this whole quiz thing happening?

00:08:08
But I remember it was fun and funky. I was like, the copy in it was. Yeah, yeah. Have you taken the Colby assessment? Are you familiar with that?

00:08:18
Not for a very long time. Okay. Or fascination advantage. No, I haven't heard of that one at all. Okay, cool.

00:08:26
Maybe we can pop those in the show. Yeah, I'll link to both of those. At the end of the day, the goal is you want to create an experience for your people. That, number one, allows you to deepen your connection with them, for them to have a positive emotional experience thanks to something you created. And that's where the personality aspect and speaking to what type of fill in the blank are you is actually really effective because as soon as you speak to someone's positive personality attributes and characteristics that they can feel good about, they then associate you with that feel good experience, and that builds trust and connection, which from there you can go deeper and say, like, okay, now that I've got your attention and hopefully we've created that likability a little bit, now I can tell you what you might be missing and where you might have room for growth and where your challenges might be.

00:09:33
And you can trust me a little bit more as a mentor because I see you and I get you. And really, that's the whole point. So if you're coming up with an idea and it really is not going to result in that resonance being cultivated. It'S not always an option to have an option in a quiz that's like, say I created a quiz that is being a course creator the right thing for you? For some people, it's going to be no.

00:10:07
Is that all right to be able to go no? Yes.

00:10:13
I had someone yesterday send me an email and they were saying, like, I'm fully tech illiterate. I don't want to learn anything about tech. I would like to only work 10 hours a week. Like, there was all these things can cost creation work for me. And I was like, no, you should not do that.

00:10:29
You're going to be very disappointed. Is that all right? Yeah. And I highly recommend if you have that sort of quiz, you have an option that is honestly, no. Like, I did a quiz for a client who, they have a life coaching certification program, and the angle was very similar to what you just said it was, should you become a life coach?

00:10:53
Is life coaching right for you and why? Right. So three of the results were yes, yes, and yes. For this reason. Result number one.

00:11:05
For this reason, result two. For this reason, result three. And the fourth result was no. Actually, this is probably not a good fit for you for a variety of reasons based on how they responded. And then, great, we can then tag those people in our email marketing system who are actually not a good fit for what we offer, and we can just put them over here or do something else with them or send them something that might actually serve them and keep the list clean and aligned.

00:11:39
Right. I love that. Yes. So what's the most successful quiz that you've ever built? Oh, my gosh.

00:11:47
Well, I think Jenna's is probably pretty high up there, and it wasn't the. What type of entrepreneur are you? It was her. What's your secret? Sauce quiz.

00:11:55
So it was really about like, as an entrepreneur, what sets you apart? What is it about who you are and how you show up that makes you different, makes you stand out and. That resonance that just makes people feel good. Totally. And it leads really naturally to what she was offering at the time.

00:12:17
So, yeah, within the first year, that quiz had, I think, over 100,000 subscribers just from that quiz alone. That's a whole lot of humans. Yeah. What is the most surprising quiz that you've ever built that's gone well, that you are like, I'm not sure about this one. This is an idea that is a bit left of field.

00:12:36
Is there one of those that you've kind of gone, this is different. I'm not sure how this is going to work. And it surprised you and had really good results. Yeah, well, actually, that life coaching one, it's not super personality forward. Right.

00:12:50
So what I typically see is when you can lean into personality, usually you'll get a lot better performance, a lot better results. And that one was really answering a very simple question, like, should you become a life coach? And it doesn't sound that exciting. It's not that sexy, it's not clever. It's genuinely the question that they get asked over and over again, that for them, they were like, no, we don't care.

00:13:18
We just want a scalable way of answering this question. And it's something I think a lot of people are wondering for themselves as well in that area that works. Yeah, that one really. It cemented the importance of clear over clever in my mind. And that one, in the first, I think it was less than a year, had like 80,000 people took that quiz.

00:13:43
And they were getting people who were signing up for the certification, which is not cheap. Straight from the results, they got enough clarity that they didn't need to even get on a sale. They were like, yeah, I'm ready. Yeah, I love that line. Clear over clever.

00:14:01
It's a good line. Yeah. There's a lot we should do in our copy that's clear over clever. I think I was just talking about this on people's websites in going, how many people's websites I look at and go, I don't know what you actually do. It looks beautiful.

00:14:16
Sounds beautiful, but who is the actual person? And. Yeah, can I use that? Clear over clever? Yeah.

00:14:23
Everyone listening, copywriting, rule of thumb in everything. Yeah. That is so good. Not easy because we all want to be clever. Yeah, but it's clever to us sometimes when people know what we're talking about, but not to the audience that we're actually serving.

00:14:39
Yeah. So you've got on, talking of websites, you've got on your website, the interactive empathy ecosystem. What is that and how do you work that in with. You've got your development methodology that you have there. What does that mean?

00:14:56
Yeah, I love that you asked this. So, to me, everything in your business is more ecosystem than just like machine, right? It's all connected, every single element, from your delivery to your marketing to how you show up as the leader. It all sort of fits together. And the eco approach, from the lens of quizzes, it starts with you.

00:15:31
So you are the sun, and the sun provides 80% of the energy in an ecosystem, in nature, and often in our businesses. Right. Even if you have a team, you're the one driving results a lot of the time. And so really first knowing yourself and taking care of yourself. And I personally love quizzes and assessments like the Colby, like the fascination advantage, like the Enneagram, like disk, like the big five as tools for better understanding your strengths and challenges and leaning into your strengths and really being aligned with the type of business you want to build.

00:16:20
So that's number one. So when I'm working with someone or coaching someone, it's like, I don't actually want you to just do what I tell you to do. I want to know what your goals are. And let's work backwards from there. Beautiful ethos.

00:16:38
Then, in your ecosystem, you need seeds and you need soil, and your seeds are your leads. So your seeds are the human beings who are coming into your world. And it's up to the soil and the sun and the water, of course, to activate those seeds, right? For them to crack open and sprout and grow to their full potential, that is the goal. And so your soil, that's your messaging, that's your copy, that's your offers, that's all the things that you create to facilitate that transformation.

00:17:17
And water is the element of change. So, as you know, we were just talking about AI before we hit record. Everything is changing so quickly, it's the only constant. And so being sort of keyed into that and then the seasons is the final piece of the ecosystem. And that's very simply that our businesses go through different seasons and we as people go through different seasons.

00:17:44
So to understand kind of where we're at seasonally and act accordingly, I am. So glad I asked that question. That's a beautiful metaphor. Thank you. Yeah, that's fantastic.

00:17:59
I do so much gardening that I'm like, so often, there's so many links from gardening and growing food to business so often. Yeah. So I love that. That is fantastic. So with that, and you've thrown out a couple that the 100,000 list growth, the 80,000 list growth for a lot of people that a lot of my audience, we're trying to get even.

00:18:24
My list is at 5000, which for a lot of people they go, wow, that is a very small list. I baffle. A lot of my friends in my mastermind have lists of tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, and we had two and a half thousand people on our list when we hit our first million. I'm always going for a very engaged audience rather than a big audience. And I think that that is something that people need to be aware of when we're talking about numbers is you don't need massive numbers to run a really effective business.

00:18:58
But is there a certain list size that you think people should have before it's worthwhile going into the land of quizzes? Or is it something that people should do in the beginning of their journey to build the list? Where do you see it sit? Yeah. That's such a good call out.

00:19:14
It's really quality over quantity. Yeah, right. Like, me too. I don't have a huge list either. It's very niche and I keep it really clean.

00:19:23
Yes, same. We delete every month. Anyone? Unsubscribed, bounced, unengaged, gone. Totally.

00:19:30
Yeah. And that's not talked about enough because this doesn't sound that sexy and exciting. But really it is way more important to have people who want you in their inbox than some vanity metric number where your click through rate is 0.2% because they're not even paying attention. So key. And what I recommend, it's not so much based on list size before creating a quiz.

00:20:01
It's more about level of understanding when it comes to who you serve and having a validated offer. So having something that people have paid you money for, they've said yes to, even if it's just a handful of people. Right. But you know that there's something there and you want to build on that so you understand who your people are, their main challenges, their main goals and desires, and you have something to sell them. That's sort of like the sweet spot for knowing if you're ready to create a quiz or not.

00:20:38
Yeah. And do you think they should be running all the time with different quizzes or is it like a pre launch thing or it just takes the place of one of your lead magnets? Yeah, I mean, there's lots of different approaches right. I know a lot of your audience is course creators. Sometimes the easiest way to get started is you have a course, right?

00:20:59
So create a quiz that is aligned with what you teach in your course. And that is your top of funnel lead magnet for your pre launch phase. Before you get into the live challenge or the live webinar, you're building your list with the quiz, and you've got. Like three types of funnels that every course creator business should have. So that's one of them.

00:21:25
What else have we got? Oh, yeah. Okay, so that's one of them, right? That top of funnel pre launch the quiz that's going to get the right people in the door. And then a lot of people don't think of doing this.

00:21:38
But you can have a really simple quiz in the middle of your. Once the doors are open to your course, you've got that window. And when you get to that mid cart, right. Every course creator's favorite time, the lull. The lull.

00:22:01
I think often that lull happens because there's a lot of people just sitting on the fence. They're just not sure. And you can introduce a quiz at that point as a decision making tool to help them decide, is this right for me or not? And again, you do genuinely need to have a result that's like, no, it probably isn't the right time. So if someone's answering, if you have questions in there that are like, are you ready to take action on XYZ?

00:22:36
And they say, no, not really. I don't even care about it that much. Okay, maybe now is not the right time. Great. I would rather support someone in making a confident decision on either side of the yes or no than to have them just hovering in this in between decision paralysis place.

00:23:01
So the quiz helps them do that middle of the funnel. And then if it's a yes, it is right for you. Here are the specific reasons why. And the more specific we get, the easier it is to sell. And it can be hard to be really that specific in your emails and on your sales page because if you don't have that segmentation in place already, how do you get it?

00:23:25
So that's where that messaging comes into play, where you can give them an answer that aligns with what they actually care about. So that's your middle of the funnel quiz. And then the last one is to have a quiz inside of your course or membership. And the purpose of that is as an onboarding tool. It helps your new student navigate all of the incredible resources that you've created.

00:23:57
Know sort of where to start. And it can really make a big difference in retention in reducing churn. If you have a membership and you see people dropping off, let's say two months in, you could have another automated sequence that gives them that quiz again and sort of reengages them, because often we lose people when they become overwhelmed and they don't know where to start. Yeah, those are the three types. That is so good.

00:24:31
I love the one for inside the membership. It's something that my membership, we have so much content and everything there, which is great because you've got everything that you need, but it can be so overwhelming for people when they come in and people come in at all different levels. We get people at the beginning, we get people that are already kicking ass that just want to get up here. We've got all of the levels. So I can see massive value in that.

00:24:56
And it does seem overwhelming to go, all right, I want to create these quizzes. How can we do that? And you're obviously the service to be able to do that. And a lot of people would try to diy. How do you explain the complexity to people and what is involved in getting started, in creating quizzes?

00:25:16
Yeah, I think it's like anything, right? Where you can create your own website, right? And you might be able to do a decent job or you might have website shame until you get help with that aspect. So quizzes are sort of the same and you very well could create your own. What I really encourage people to assess for themselves is number 01:00 a.m..

00:25:47
I a good copywriter? Because the foundation of the effectiveness of the quiz is in the copy. So am I a good copywriter? The tech side is often where I get the most questions and people are like, which platform do I choose? And they have so many questions around the tech.

00:26:06
Personally, I feel like the tech is the easiest piece. Yeah, I think so too. And then the design. So a lot of the quiz hosting platforms have really poor built in design functionality. You can design your results within the builder, but they usually don't look very good.

00:26:28
They're not typically going to be all that on brand. And so having really good professional design or using design templates is something that I recommend to just sort of elevate the whole experience. Because a lot of people have taken a lot of quizzes on the Internet and most of them sort of all look the same and they have that buzzfeed feel. So if your aesthetic and your messaging is top notch, it's really easy to communicate that, oh, this is something totally different. This is actually valuable.

00:27:04
And what do you see when people come to you? What is the biggest misconception that people have about building quizzes?

00:27:12
That it's so easy they can just plug into a template in a quiz hosting software and. But a boom bada bing, that it's a flash in the pan thing that they might pull out to create some buz and then never use it, never touch it again. Yeah. So my approach is to create something that is going to remain relevant in your business for years and years that is of such quality that people, when they get their results, are like, whoa, I need to bookmark this. I need to come back to this.

00:27:49
I need to print this out. It is so comprehensive and reflective of your frameworks and philosophies that aren't flash in the pan. Right. Those have already likely stood the test of time. And that's what you're basing it off.

00:28:07
Yeah, I think so, too. I know when we're talking about quizzes together, a lot of it is like the tech part to me. I'm like, I know the platforms, I know how to do that. But how do you ask the questions in a way that is going to be seamless and flowy and then give people a result that's going to actually mean something that they can do something of value with? That, I think is the hard part.

00:28:29
And then where does it lead? That is the part that's so intricate and seems so easy. I was even saying for everybody on Chanti's website, go to her website. The link is in the bio. In all the lesson notes, one of the most beautiful about pages I have ever seen in terms of copy.

00:28:47
And I was reading it and going, it's just like delicious language going down in going, it is so professional, but so personal. And that is exactly what I think the missing link is. From passable to great. Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

00:29:06
Okay, so I have one or two final questions. Questions for you. One is, where do you see the wonderful world of quizzes going in the future? With all of the incoming of AI and different things that are happening in our industry, where do you think it's going to lead? Oh, my goodness.

00:29:23
That's such a good question. One thing I'm playing with a lot right now is like, chat funnels.

00:29:32
I'm obsessed. Comment the word and get the thing straight in your dms. And you can do that with a quiz where you actually are delivering most of the quiz straight in the dms, and it's all automated. And so you're having this back and forth conversation, giving someone. I went the other day, like I was inside many chat, building out these funnels and was doing that, like, having these conversations back and forth.

00:30:00
And I got to the end and then looked at it and I went, Tina, I think you've gone too far. I think there was a line and I think you crossed it. It was just like this spider's web of stuff going. But to me, it's so clever. It's such an easy, clever software to go, how can you have this conversation that's going to be meaningful and valuable to people and they can get it in real time?

00:30:22
Fantastic. Yeah. How do we meet people where they're at? Right. Yeah, that's one of the ways.

00:30:30
And then another way I see them really working in the future is, and present is to use a quiz to segment your audience and then to build your campaigns based on those segments and stop trying to be everything to everyone.

00:30:54
That's another thing. And that's where the more specific you get, the more you can sell, the easier it is to get that. Yes. That's why I love the reference you made of the life coach, one of going like, yes, it's right for you because of these reasons. Yes, it's right for you because of this.

00:31:10
Yes, it's right for you this. No, maybe not right now, but segmenting like that allows you to send completely different relevant information to each of those groups, which is just so valuable as course creators. Yeah. And I think often if you're just kind of like newer and you don't have a huge email list and you're just kind of starting out and you're solo, it can feel like that's a really advanced strategy. Know, we know big data is on par with all the other bigs in terms of how massive that industry is.

00:31:46
And we think that's reserved for Ford and Bayer and all these huge brands, but you can ethically collect relevant data that will allow you to easily increase your conversion rates with something like a quiz, like, you don't have to harvest it or pay Facebook to sell you Data, you can do it with consent. And, yeah, it sounds a bit intimidating, but it's really simple and once you kind of get your hands dirty with it, you'll never want to go back. And we have a quiz in the show, notes from you, the online business growth type assessment. What will that give people? Yeah.

00:32:35
So, like, I was sharing some of those quizzes that help you to better understand your strengths and your challenges. That's what that quiz is all about. It's like, why are we all being sort of sold the same strategies when it comes to building our online businesses? If you're super introverted and have no desire to be on video, you can still be successful. Let's just take a different route than maybe what so and so over here is teaching you have to do, you don't.

00:33:06
And so there's, like, personality specific growth strategies, and it's based on both personality and level of business. Yeah, nice. Yeah, I mean, there's 16 total possible results, and it's going to help you whether you're like, I've made $0, or you are a seven figure business owner, because there's the big spectrum there of. We will all take that one. It's going to be amazing.

00:33:36
So my last question is nothing to do with quizzes. It's you as a business owner, as you run and grow your business, what does success mean to you? What does that look like? Oh, my gosh. It means on a sunny day like today, I can just go and hang out with my kids in the swing and do yoga on my deck and make my own rules.

00:34:01
Really? That's it. And I also love getting results for people and sales without having to be at my desk. I think that's kind of a cliche thing, but I've only just recently sort of. That's happening more and more.

00:34:21
I'm like, this is great. This is it. Yeah, completely. I mean, that's why we all get into it, right? Is to have that.

00:34:30
Like, it's a question I ask everyone. What does success mean to you? Because I'm always fascinated by it. But it's amazing how many people go, like, it's all about the. Yeah, yeah.

00:34:41
That's what we all want. And quizzes can help us get there. So, Shati, thank you so, so much. For sharing all of that with us. I'll link to everything in the show notes so everyone can find you, and we'll tag you on it so that everyone can see.

00:34:55
But thank you. This has been so helpful. Yay. Thank you for having me. This episode was brought to you by my signature group coaching program, her empire builder.

00:35:06
The best online education for female course creators in the world. Check it [email protected]. Along with so many free resources to help you get building your empire and seeing those results that you deserve. If you loved this episode, please don't keep it a secret. Share it with a friend on social media and tag me at Tina Underscore Tower and give it a review.

00:35:30
It really does help us to be able to bring you bigger and better content as we grow. Have the most beautiful day. I'm Tina Tower, and I'm cheering you on all the way.